John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Hi Folks,

I've been on the forum countless times... Really great community!

I have a real large room here. About 42ft x 21.5 ft with only 6feet 7 inches ceiling heights. With ceiling heights that low, is it even worth spending thousands of dollars on building out the room?

I primarily work on film scores with all virtual instruments. However I do record vocalists and solo instrumentalists. (acoustic guitar, flute, violin, etc.)

Currently the room is basically all open. I plan on creating a small tracking room for the vocalist or instrumentalist. I guess my question is, with ceiling heights this low, should I spend money splaying the walls to avoid parallel walls... as suggested everywhere here? Or would the money be better spent just treating the room as much as I can?

I have a 5k budget total. Here are some quick facts:

1. Im on 5 acres of land. There is no issue with music bothering neighbors or anything.
2. This room is oddly sandwiched between 2 floors. It is above a 4 car garage and below 2 guest bedrooms above. Nobody is ever upstairs, and the garage is predictable as to noise.
3. I do have a road about 2 acres away that is audible if my windows are open. Occasionally a large truck will drive by and the noise is slightly audible even with the windows closed.
4.The tracking room doesn't need complete sound isolation. I've recorded countless times in my current "one room" setup with headphones and received decent results. (although it would be nice for critical listening to be able to listen from my monitors)
5.Currently the room has no acoustical treatment!

Here is the problem. If I splay all the walls as indicated down below. I will at probably spend my whole 5k on that process. Or, I could build a simple straight wall to add a tracking room, and use the rest of the money to acoustically treat the room as best as possible.

What should i do???? Save up for more money and do it right?? Or use the money to just treat the room?? Thanks guys!! I value your advise and opinions!!

No advice??? Help please????

It's OK. I realize everybody is busy. But please let me know if anyone can offer some advice! I need to move forward rather quickly.

A local acoustic treatment company here in Chicago has a program where they come out and measure your room and complete a 3d rendition of your room with placement of recommended treatment. I just received the renditions and I would like to get some feedback if possible. To stay within budget, this option meant leaving the room as is and just building a straight wall to separate the live room and control room.

Please let me know what your thoughts!! (please)

Bump? Im planning on starting next week. Any help would be nice. Stuart??

Thnx!

Ooops! Another one I missed!

But you are also missing something: Please check the forum rules...

Ouch!!!!! Are you referring to the final interior height of the finished rooms, after both isolation and treatment? Or is that the starting point, before you do anything to it? If you still have to add isolation and treatment to that, I don't see how you can make that into a usable room: you probably won't even be able to stand up in it, in some places, and it will seem rather claustrophobic, both visually and acoustically. If that is the case, is there any chance that you can either raise the ceiling above you, or lower the floor underneath you?

However, if that's the final height you are talking about, after isolation / treatment, then it's probably usable.

I'm not convinced that those could be recoded successfully in a room with such a low ceiling. Flute and violin, for example, are often miced at the same height as the instrument, or even higher: That puts the microphone pretty much right up against the ceiling, where it will be suffering greatly from all sorts of reflections, phasing and comb filtering artifacts. How could you get a mic above a six foot violinist who likes to play while standing? Even worse, how could you even fit a double-bass in there, or even most cellos, or a harp, if you needed to record those? They would not fit below your ceiling! There's probably a dozen other instruments that would have a hard time just fitting physically, apart from the acoustic aspects.

OK, so that clarifies that we are talking about a bare room: no isolation or treatment yet. This is not sounding hopeful, unfortunately.

To be honest, I think the question of splaying the walls or not is the very LEAST of your problems! Height is the proverbial "800 pound gorilla" here. But if splaying is the question, then splayed or not splayed should not change the cost at all. You use the exact same materials and techniques for splayed walls as you do for straight walls. The only thing that changes is the angle you set on your saw when you cut the ends of the the top and bottom plates: it costs nothing to change that!

I would not set up the control room like that: the front end is not symmetrical, and symmetry is absolutely critical. If you don't have symmetry, then you don't have an accurate sound stage or stereo image. And since you say you do film work, I'm guessing that your studio will be set up for surround (5.1, 7.1, etc.), which also implies that the entire room needs to be symmetrical, not just the front: the rear end is not symmetrical in that render.

And even with that minimal treatment (which I think is totally insufficient in the vertical plane), look at where your head is compared to the cloud: I don't think you can stand up there without hitting your head on the cloud! You do need the cloud (and probably one that is larger and thicker than that one, perhaps angled even more), so removing it isn't an option.

However, if that's the only possible space available to you, and the choice is either use that or do nothing, then you probably could treat it heavily, if you are prepared to live with the consequences and limitations. The treatment shown in that render is minimal, and only deals with walls: A single cloud on the ceiling is not going to tame that CR.

The treatment for the LR looks like it might be OK, bit it seems to be all absorption: I don't see any diffusion in there. For a room that size, diffusion is an option.

Anyway, I would seriously consider looking for a place with more height. I'm not at all convinced that you can turn that space into a usable studio, or at least not without some heavy limitations.


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Thanks for replying Stuart!!!

Alright! Where to begin... Of course the ceiling!!! Let me address some of the great points you raise:



Unfortunately, this is the height before I begin! ! ! And I cannot raise the ceiling nor lower the floor. However, there may be a few things still going for me:

First, above my studio space, there are 2 guest bedrooms that NOBODY uses. Its basically a separate "wing" of the house. So there is very little issue in terms of isolation problems of noise coming from above.

Second, I just opened up a small part of the ceiling drywall, and there is a full 14inch of space above the ceiling! It seems they used 14inch joists. My question is, would we be able to use that space as acoustical treatment area? For example, instead of using a cloud above the mixing position (yet below the already installed drywall), couldn't we remove the drywall above my head? Remove say a 10' x 12' area of drywall above, completely fill that area with 14 inches rockwool/oc 703, and leave it exposed? Hence, 14 inches of absorption above the listening position?

I know that this presents isolation problems, but nobody is ever upstairs and I live on 5 acres.... Can it work????



I know Stuart, I know!! Hence the title of the thread...: "Is it even worth building this space out!" Well, im still wondering if the above will work. Otherwise, I need some really short instrumentalists...or they're just going to have to sit.



I was referring to just leaving the room as is, with a simple wall divider as shown on the acoustical rendition. I guess my point was, if i go through the trouble of splaying the walls, adding all the 2x4s, drywall, etc., being that the ceiling height is sooo low, would it be worth the expense and trouble!



Im not sure if you saw the 2nd pic I posted. It was a sketch I did with sketchup. which I think somewhat addressed the symmetrical issue. However, I lost that sketchup file, Im redoing one as we speak. But please take a look at it, and let me know what you think.

Ive posted a video of my space on youtube just for general reference. Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtqqQTYWf5M&feature=youtu.be

Im very determined to make this work as best as possible. And Im willing to up the budget... Let me thank you so much for your help. Im very very grateful. Im hoping there is a creative way to use the 14" above the ceiling!!!

Thanks! Thanks! Thanks!

That's great news! And especially seeing that the rooms above are never used, so you don't run the risk of unexpected impact noise, from people walking around up there, dropping things, moving things, opening and closing doors, etc.

You sure can!

To be honest, if that were my room, I'd remove ALL of the ceiling, in BOTH rooms, and use every last inch as much as possible! That's a really nice amount of space up there. Fill some of it with thick absorption, other parts not so thick, as needed. And cover it all with cloth, to hide the "ugly". Or leave it open for a more rustic look. Makes no difference, acoustically.

I'd also think about sealing the sub-floor above you from down there, in between the joists, and maybe adding some mass to that from below as well, even though you say you don't need isolation.

:) The harpist might have to play lying down, with the harp also on it's side... (You could invent a new genre of music: call it "Horizontal Rock" or "Flat Jazz" or something! You'll make a killing! )

Ahhh! OK, I thought you were talking about building isolation walls anyway. Makes sense.

Depends on what you are trying to do. For example, if you want to build a studio based on the RFZ concept (Reflection Free Zone), then you don't have a lot of choice: splayed walls are in your future. But if you aren't interested in that, then the walls are optional. But your room isn't symmetrical to start with, so you do need at least a couple of walls to fix that.

OK, I looked again and saw it. That makes more sense, but you do seem to be wasting a bit of space there. At the sides, for example: there are large empty areas inside your walls that could be used better. You only really need to splay the front part of your walls, just enough to create the RFZ. From there on back, they can be parallel, or at least at a much shallower angle. You'll lose a bit more up front in the angles (unless you also soffit mount your speakers, in which case you lose nothing! It looks like you might be trying to do that, but it's incomplete and not very clear...), but you gain more on the sides, and the room "feels" wider too.

Also, you have some strange shapes at the back that aren't necessary. Perhaps some of those are supposed to be bass traps, not wall, but it's hard to say as they are all colored white and all the same size! It would be better to show your existing outer leaf in one color, your inner-leaf isolation wall in another color, and your treatment in yet other colors.

Great! Just took a look at it, and it's very much like the models. That ceiling is looowwwwww..... The room must sound pretty lousy right now.

But 14 inches of extra height makes a big difference, even considering the joists.


I'd say it's worth a shot!


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Hey Stuart! Thank you so much!!

Ok so.... We've determined that the ceiling must come down! And I just got off the phone with my 6.2 foot amazonian harpist... I fired her! lol



I have no problem removing the ceiling in the mix room, as i'm not overly concerned about isolation in the mix room. However, If we remove the entire ceiling in the tracking room, wouldn't isolation be an issue there? My concern is not from above... again nobody is ever up there. However, there is a street about an acre away, and that's really the only thing that brings in noise of any significance. And even with the street, its only when a large vehicle passes by.

My thought is, I'm going to go for it, remove the ceiling, build the dividing wall, and test it out. I can always just install drywall with Risilient chanel later if absolutely needed. (Im hoping not!) Your thoughts?



Im definitely planning on doing this in the tracking room! Thnx!



Ok... I started working on that... Check out some new drawings I did last night.







Let me know how they look.

Thanks again!
Best,
Tony