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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Location: Norway
Greetings, this will be my first post on this great forum. I’m currently in the planning stage of my very-very small one-room guitar recording studio build in Tromso Norway. After hours and hours of research on studio construction I’m finally finished with capturing a draft of my studio in the virtual world (Sketchup). I now feel that I have so many questions that I need the advice of those more experienced studio designers. Feedback on my plans - and, in particular, the construction details will be highly appreciated.
Location: Norway (Tromso), suburbs, residential neighbourhood, (owned, family with small kids), first and second floor. Rental to student couple on the ground floor.

Building: The studio will be built in an existing small bedroom on the first floor. The room approximately L:3,10m x W:2,30 x H:2,70m. I know it’s a very small room and not ideal for a studio, but it’s the only room I have available. The room consists of a concrete floor. Existing Wood framed exterior and interior walls. Ceiling above is pine plank underlayment with flat roof above.
See attached overview over existing layout and proposed finished space.

Intended purpose: Playing Guitar/recording (Electric guitar/Bass, percussion instruments on moderate volume and vocals). Quiet mixing and hanging out/recording space.

Loudness: Upwards of 110 db. The music should sound quiet down steers and outside walls so I don’t bother my wife/kids, Student renting the basement and neighbours.

Budget: <= $5000.

Proposed Layout: New room fully decoupled (5cm from existing wall). Wall From inside: Isolated 2x4 wood frame - recilient channel (Rc8) - Gypsum board (15mm) - Green glue - Gypsum board (13mm). Double doors (back-to-back). Isolated frame double-window where the existing window will be used as the second window. Floor from inside: 2x6 wood frame resting on neoprene pads (U-boats) on existing concrete floor. Wood frame Isolated with 10 cm studio grade fiber insulation. Plywood (19mm) - SheetBlock - MDF board (19mm) - Carpet. Ceiling From inside: Same as wall on existing wood frame.

HVAC: There is no area available outside the studio for HVAC equipment. So everything has to be mounted inside the studio walls.
Ventilation inlet: 110 CFM inlet wall fan (“Whispergreen FV-11VK3”) to Silencer box mounted on inner wall frame. Ventilation Outlet: 108 CFM exhaust outdoor Wall fan (“EXT 100A”) to Silencer box mounted on inner wall frame. The silence boxes are 60cm x 120cm x 10 cm. Cooling/heat: Mini-split (Mitsubishi Mr. slim MSYGE09NA)

Sound treatment: Walls will be treated with homemade bass traps and diffusers. The entire Ceiling will be covered with acoustic insolation.

Attached information:
1. Existing room and exterior walls
2. New floor
3. New walls
4. Double doors
5. Double window
6. Ventilation
7. Equipment layout

Questions:
1. Is the proposed layout and soundproofing (Wall, floor, door, window) any good or am I way of? What about the existing exterior and interior wall. Can I leave them as they are or do I have to treat them with more mas?
2. What about the HVAC. Will it work with the proposed wall mounted fans and silence boxes? Keep in mind that I have no room for exterior ventilation and have to mount fans on the wall and silence boxes in the wood frame.
3. What’s the best way to fit cable duct. I haven’t been able to find any good solutions. Do I put them in the wall or floor and or how?
5. Any comments on acoustic treatment (Wall/Ceiling)?
5. Other comments?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:04 am 
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Hello NorWay and welcome !

your plan looks fine…just a few suggestions if I may

Where I was living before I had my set up in a room very similar to yours…Very small…
Obviously the bigger problems were flutter echo and Lots of modal frequencies, making everything I was doing in that room translate very badly everywhere else.

So, my suggestion would be to have as much bass absorbing as you possibly can!

Here's what I was thinking…pics sometimes help to understand better:
Attachment:
NorWay Studio_1.jpg

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NorWay Studio_2.jpg

Attachment:
NorWay Studio_3.jpg

Attachment:
NorWay Studio_4.jpg

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NorWay Studio_5.jpg

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NorWay Studio_6.jpg

Attachment:
NorWay Studio_7.jpg

The whole construction is inside-out, as per John's design…I think in small rooms there isn't much choice really…
you could go with the ceiling inside out too to get more absorption there, perhaps even a small angled Hard-back cloud above the listening position, to help breaking up the modes / flutter between floor and the ceiling?
You could even build a movable superchunk (perhaps resting on a 18mm ply with small wheels underneath) to put in the other corner when the door is closed?

(the two hangers in the front corners could be replaced by floor-to-ceiling superchunk as an alternative…even though I would go with the hangers if space allows)

… these are just ideas … I would of course wait for what the experts have to say


Good luck! :thu:

Simo


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:28 am 
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Hi "studioNorWay", welcome! :)

Just a few general comments about your plan:

Quote:
Rental to student couple on the ground floor. ... The studio will be built in an existing small bedroom on the first floor
Isolating a studio on an upper floor is not easy, but fortunately you don't need much isolation, since you are only doing guitar work in there: nothing loud. So you will probably be OK, but it would help if you could say how much isolation you need (in decibels)

Quote:
Loudness: Upwards of 110 db. The music should sound quiet down steers and outside walls so I don’t bother my wife/kids, Student renting the basement and neighbours.
:shock: I thought you said it was just for guitar recording? How do you play a guitar loud enough to get to 110 dB? Maybe you are talking about ELECTRIC guitar, not ACOUSTIC guitar? Will there be other loud instruments in there too?

When you say that it needs to be quiet enough downstairs and outside to not bother your family / renters / neighbors, you should really put a number on that, so you can determine how much isolation you need. For example, if you decide that you want a level of 60 dB outside / downstairs, then you would need 50 dB of isolation. But if you want a level of 40 dB outside / downstairs, then you would need 70 dB of isolation. It is important to define your isolation needs with numbers, so you can find the right type of construction and materials to get the isolation you want.

Quote:
Floor from inside: 2x6 wood frame resting on neoprene pads (U-boats) on existing concrete floor. Wood frame Isolated with 10 cm studio grade fiber insulation. Plywood (19mm) - SheetBlock - MDF board (19mm) - Carpet. Ceiling From inside: Same as wall on existing wood frame.
That's probably a bad idea, and very likely would make your isolation WORSE, not better. Here's why:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

Quote:
New room fully decoupled (5cm from existing wall). Wall From inside: Isolated 2x4 wood frame - recilient channel (Rc8) - Gypsum board (15mm) - Green glue - Gypsum board (13mm).
If that 2x4 frame is not part of / attached to the existing walls, then you do not need the resilient channel. If the framing is decoupled, then you don't need to decouple again.

Quote:
floor --- Carpet.
Carpet is almost never used on studio floors, for several reasons. A hard, solid, rigid reflective surface is best. Such as concrete, ceramic tile, laminated flooring, linoleum, etc.

HVAC SILENCERS: You need at least a couple of baffles inside the silencer box, if you want to get very high levels of isolation.

ACOUSTIC TREATMENT: You show a QRD diffuser on the first reflection point on the right wall, but there are two things wrong with that. First, the room is way too small to be able to use numeric sequence diffusers, and second the room must be symmetrical. Whatever you do on the right wall must also be done the same on the left wall.

Simo has some good suggestions about other points.


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Location: Norway
Dear Simo and Stuart

Thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed response. Your explanation on various factors was very informative. I now understand that John’s inside out design is probably the best idea with regards to my small available space and problems with flutter echo and modal frequencies. Even though I probably won’t get rid of every problem due to my limited area I`m very keen to get the best room I possibly can. Thanks Simo for pointing it out to me! I will dig my head in the details of the design concept and redesign the room as noted.

Loudness: Stuart, sorry for the unclearness. You are right. I will mostly do guitar (acoustic and electric) work in the studio. The 110db is due to the electric guitar amplification. I will also record other instruments like electric Bass, vocals and percussion instruments on moderate volume. But those will not produce that much volume.

Insolation: I would like it to be as quiet as possible inside the house. So dB<=40 Inside (living room/hallway) & downstairs (ground floor). My closest neighbour is 10 meters away (Wall to wall), but 4 meters to his property. So dB<=40 at the property border.

Floor from inside: Thanks for the heads up on the floating floor. I didn’t realize that it has so much negative effect. I will for sure drop that idea. But that leaves me a bit confused about a couple of things: My floor is concrete but has no firm connection with earth. I have students renting the ground floor under the studio, se the attached drawing which illustrates this.
1. So I will probably need some sort of insulation on top of the concrete floor, right?
2. What will then be the best way forward?

Wall from inside: Remove the recilient channel… noted! One question though. With an inside out design: can I use the same wall setup as before (Gypsum board (15mm) - Green glue - Gypsum board (13mm) - Isolated 2x4 wood frame) ?

Floor: Will remove the carpet and use laminated flooring instead.

HVAC Silencer: See attached illustration. I have put some bafflers in the silencer and added some more depth.
1. Am I ok with the proposed silencer measurements and wall mounted fans?
2. If I do inside out walls I will not be able to place my silencer as I originally planned, right? Should I instead place them in the exterior wall frame?

ACOUSTIC TREATMENT: Thanks for clarifying this to me. Much appreciated!

Exterior Wall: What should I do with my existing exteriour walls? They would probably need more mass, right?

Thank again for you time!
Best regards
Bjorn


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Location: Norway
Hello again.

Haven’t gotten any answer on my last post in a while now. Please let me know if I’m doing anything wrong with my posts. Anyhow here is an update. I have designed the room as inside out as suggested in the last posts. I don’t think I have room for hangers or super chunks. So I was thinking that I have absorbers in the corners and on the walls as shown in attached photos. Will this work?

The Corner absorber by the door will be mounted on the door and will move automatically as the door closes and opens.
With regards to the floor I have left it as concrete. Still uncertain that this will be enough sins there are people living under the floor. On top of the concrete I will have laminate flooring.

The silence boxes are put in the exterior wall. From the silence box through the studio wall I will use a 10cm flexible duct.

I know there are many post to answer on this forum so I will continue to be patient with mine. So let me know when you can.
All answer and comments will be highly appreciated.

-Bjorn-


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:31 am 
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Comments anyone? Would be nice to know if i'm on the right track or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:11 am 
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Wow! Another thread that slipped past me, without a response! :oops:

Quote:
My floor is concrete but has no firm connection with earth. I have students renting the ground floor under the studio, se the attached drawing which illustrates this.
1. So I will probably need some sort of insulation on top of the concrete floor, right?
2. What will then be the best way forward?
You might want to consider the "drum riser" method, that both Glenn and Rod suggest. Basically, a layer of 703 laid flat on the concrete, with a couple of layers of thick plywood resting on top, screwed and glued, and cut a bit short around the edges so there is a small gap, which you then fill with backer rod and acoustic caulk. It's not really a floating floor, but more of an "impact isolated" floor that will help keep the direct impact noise and direct vibration noise (eg: bass amp) from getting into the concrete.

Quote:
One question though. With an inside out design: can I use the same wall setup as before (Gypsum board (15mm) - Green glue - Gypsum board (13mm) - Isolated 2x4 wood frame) ?
Yup, you sure can! The easiest way to do that is to build the wall laying down flat on the floor, then lift up up into position when it is finished. But be warned; it will be HEAVY!

Quote:
HVAC Silencer: See attached illustration. I have put some bafflers in the silencer and added some more depth.
1. Am I ok with the proposed silencer measurements and wall mounted fans?
HVAC is a large subject, and there are lots of things you should take into account. First, you start by figuring out how many "air changes per hour! you need, which means how many times each hour do you need to replace all of the air in the room, with fresh air from outside. There are tables that tell you that kind of thing, but there might also be legal requirements where you live, set by your building code. Probably around 8 to 10 changes per hour would be a good starting point.

Then you take that and figure out how may cubic feet per minute of air you need to move to accomplish that. For example, if your room volume is 1500 cubic feet, and you need 8 changes per hour, that would be 12,000 cubic feet per hour, which is 200 cubic feet per minute. So you would need fans capable of moving 200 CFM under load. (Be careful here! manufacturers normally specify their fans for no load, then provide a table that shows how much that changes under different load conditions.

Now you now how much VOLUME of air you have to move: you have to figure out your duct cross sections such that the SPEED is kept low enough that it won't cause any noise problems of its own. You should figure out your duct sizes such that the speed of the air as it moves through the registers into and out of the room, is no more than 300 feet per second.

So check your calculations and see of your dimensions make sense, based on the above criteria. You'll have to convert to metric, of course.... sorry about that!

Quote:
2. If I do inside out walls I will not be able to place my silencer as I originally planned, right? Should I instead place them in the exterior wall frame?
If they fit, yes. Or if not, put them in a box inside the room, our outside the room, or even above the room...

Quote:
Haven’t gotten any answer on my last post in a while now. Please let me know if I’m doing anything wrong with my posts.
Nothing wrong with your posts! What's wrong is my timing... :( Too much work right now to be paying full attention to the forum.... :oops: Hopefully other people will join in with advice too...
Quote:
Anyhow here is an update. I have designed the room as inside out as suggested in the last posts.
Looks good!

Quote:
So I was thinking that I have absorbers in the corners and on the walls as shown in attached photos. Will this work?
It should work, but you might be over-doing the absorption a bit. It looks like there might be too much. I would suggest maybe slot walls on the sides, partially?

If you can't get bass traps in the four vertical corners, then don't forget that there are a lot more corners on the room.... twelve, in fact... :)

Nice SketchUp work, by the way! Very clear.

I would also suggest that you build the room first, then test it using the REW acoustic software, to see how it is behaving in reality, then plan your treatment based on that. It is possible to predict the behavior in advance, but the actual behavior can be different, since it is impossible to build it exactly according to plan, and the building materials aren't "perfect" either. So it's always a good idea to measure the real behavior, and plan treatment according.y




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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:31 am 
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Location: Norway
Hello All
Back again. Its been a while sins my last update due to some big renovation projects on my house that has taken alot of my time. But im now finally starting on my small studio project again. While renovationg my house I desided to make my room a little bigger. So the room is now 1,20 m bigger then before. The new room size is now. L:4,20m x W:2,26 x H:2,64. There some planning still to be done, like flooring, ventilation and some other stuff. I will post this for input as soon as I can. In the mean time I have taken care of the existing walls and floor. Double layer gypsum board (last layer mounted with caulk) has been mounted inside the existing frames and isolated, living the isolation facing the room. Existing wood floor has been removed living only the concrete floor. The last thing ive done is reinforsing the existing door frame.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:56 am 
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I came over the other day a mini air condition system from mitsubishi. Its called VL-100U5-E. It has Airflow (m³/h) - Lo-Hi 61-106. One problem though is the sound level 27lo to 38high. Those any one here have experience with this type or is there a more suitable small air condition system on the market thats better for small studios like mine? Ive seen on this formun other suggestions like the mini split and the Daikin one that john was talking about. Another question: with these types of air conditioning do I really need anything else? It delivers fresh air and has humidity control.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:44 am 
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Question: Let me know if my studio thread is closed for comments or if I'm doing something wrong. I know its been a while sins I started this thread. Anyway here is an updated. I have started with the inner walls. I was forced to split the wall frame in several parts due to the small space. See some pictures below


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:45 am 
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Hey mate
Just a post to say I'm eagerly following this one as I'm building a room much the same size so I'm really interested in what you end up doing to treat the room.

Ben


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:26 am 
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Quote:
While renovationg my house I desided to make my room a little bigger. So the room is now 1,20 m bigger then before.
Excellent! Bigger = better!

Quote:
The new room size is now. L:4,20m x W:2,26 x H:2,64.
Did you check that with a room ratio calculator (mode calculator)? Does it pass? Is it inside the Bolt area?

Quote:
I came over the other day a mini air condition system from mitsubishi. Its called VL-100U5-E. It has Airflow (m³/h) - Lo-Hi 61-106. One problem though is the sound level 27lo to 38high.
That's not an air conditioner! That's a heat exchange! Not the same at all. More specifically, it is an ERV. And the noise levels are a bit on the high side.

Quote:
Another question: with these types of air conditioning do I really need anything else? It delivers fresh air and has humidity control.
IT is not an air conditioner, and it does not control humidity: It transfers some of the humidity from the out-going air to the incoming air, but that's all it does. It does not remove humidity, or add humidity. It does not cool the air, or heat the air. All it does is to recover SOME of the energy in the exhaust air stream, and transfer it to the inlet air stream.

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:50 am 
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Keep it going! I started my studio design and build thread in 2011 and am still plugging away!

Never give up, never surrender!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:31 pm 
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bpeters wrote:
Hey mate
Just a post to say I'm eagerly following this one as I'm building a room much the same size so I'm really interested in what you end up doing to treat the room.

Ben


Hi Ben. Good to know that I'm not the only one building such a small scale studio. keep it up


Last edited by studioNorWay on Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Thanks Stuart for taking the time to comment. Much appreciated

Quote:
Did you check that with a room ratio calculator (mode calculator)? Does it pass? Is it inside the Bolt area?


Regarding the new room size I did not re-check calculations after building the room bigger. Kind of forgot that part.
Another thing to mention is that I've described my room size as before I started with the inner walls. Now that my inner walls are up my actual room size is L: 3.8m W:1.93m H:2.4m
With these measurements I won't pass the mode calculation. The problem seems to be the height of the room. Before the new selling was in place I had 2.64m from the concrete floor to the original ceiling. With the 2.64 height I passed the mode calculation. but with the 2.40m height I'm getting with the new ceiling I don't pass. Also with the drum riser going on top of the concrete floor will leave me with even smaller height. Do you have any suggestion what I can do to pass the mode calculations? Can I compensate with the size of the side wall absorbers? all suggestions will be much appreciated.


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