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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:36 am 
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Location: Orchard Park, NY
gullfo wrote:
definitely looking good! once you get the outer drywall up, thump on the walls a bit to see if you have any structure transfer (or perhaps do it now and see if you can feel it in the outside frame - probably need an assistant unless you can run really fast :-))


Progress Report ...

It's been awhile since I've been able to post any updates ... but we have been getting things
done. It's just the list CAN seem endless :roll:

OK ... where we last left off, the data conduit pipe had been installed.
While I had helpers here, I was able to do some testing to see/hear if any 'structural transfers'
were taking place. The main issue we found was that talking into the open pipe could be
heard [megaphone] on the other end. This was rather expected. I placed a bit of 'duct clay'
over the inside hole, and that helped. However ... thumping on the clay with a finger DID
transfer ... kinda like a small tabla [I'll keep this in mind for my next percussion piece] :|
Again ... this was expected. Once we have cables pulled, we deal with a better stuffing
solution.

Now the inner/ outer walls ...

Having clay sealed the 2 electrical feed areas, & the data conduit on the back of the inner leaf,
I was able to staple the outer wall insulation into place [JM 3-1/2" 22.5"w]. [oh, I also did
some vacuuming between the walls to clean that up] :)

With that, came time to get the 5/8" drywall mounted on this outer wall. Here is the view
that is outside of the CR front.
Attachment:
PL_PID_E44717AF-E5CC-4F52-8AC3-E22FFE1D8CC9.jpg

Much the same hanging technique that was used on the inner walls. We also hung drywall
on the outer side wall ... UP to the door [no pix as yet]. The remaining walls [other side
of the door] have only insulation in, as this is there area that ventilation is going.

Checking for 'transfer noise' between the walls. I don't have any measurements, but I
can say that the isolation is very high. I still need to go in an caulk the outer wall edges,
along with tape/mud seams ... so more testing to come.

One BIG surprise ... tapping on the walls ... The sound difference between the single 5/8"
outer wall layer COMPARED to the inner walls 2 layers of 5/8" along with the 2 tubes
treatment of Green Glue is quite dramatic! :shock: 8)

OK ... more things to post ... just gotta get my pictures transfered.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:43 am 
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.... and he's back !

got a few more pix to document recent activities ...

Panels, Corner Chunky Traps and ....... Fabric.

First, a word of advice ... don't ever shop JoAnn's fabric anywhere near the Halloween season.
Couldn't understand why the tents & sleeping bags out the sidewalk :shock:

There I am, in line, with a bail roll of 4oz Polyester batting ... this thing was HUGE ! When my
turn in line came up ... everyone had left the cutting table :|
It's a conspiracy I tell ya :cop:

Finally they show up ... I need about 30 yards of this stuff. So together, she's unrolling &
measuring, and I'm rolling up the slack. Just before she cuts, I peer around the roll &
question .... 'Is this a measure twice, cut once scenario' :shot: She looked at me STUNNED :shock:

This ole lady waiting in line calls out ... 'Oh no, I was counting right along with her!'
God bless ya :D With my 50% off coupon [via iPhone], the checkout lady just looked at me
with, hmmm, the same look I got before when buying fabric .... she doesn't even WANT to
know what I'm making. Then it got to her ... 'What are you making?' She decided to accept
my explanation. I think :?

Some GOOD fortune ... my good bud that was coming to do the fabric procedure ask 'his'
mom for help [she had just finished making some of the most incredible Halloween costume
for the kids] said that she would handle the fire-retardant treatment for my fabric :) She
has been doing this for years and had lots of experience. That was great.

Back at the Control Room, the covering of the panels began.

I have a few pix of the process. I TRIED to stay out of my buddy's way during all this ... he
wanted no pictures ... but I still snuk a few.

Corner traps ... first were covered in the batting
Attachment:
PL_PID_8EBB7CE1-1825-4989-BC86-96BBDD7D70D4.jpg

Stapled into place ... then the fabric ... pictures later.

Hardbacked Clouds.
Attachment:
PL_PID_81E803DF-3AAE-40CB-9E5A-A2EC15F91744.jpg

Started off with some cloth tape on the metal edges to soften them down.
Attachment:
PL_PID_713FE030-560D-4558-AAFB-596F53CC5695.jpg

Wrapped in batting & stapled to the plywood back.
Attachment:
PL_PID_CAFF09C7-AA28-494A-8518-BF89E076A536.jpg

Then applied the fabric cover ...
Attachment:
PL_PID_4CC60D1A-E5F2-4E95-9030-7B4F39F30EC9.jpg


The 'Soft' Clouds required a different fastening technique.
Again, cloth taped corners
Attachment:
PL_PID_7F646AF0-82AF-431C-86CA-E58450C7921F.jpg

Followed by batting
And then fabric.
Attachment:
PL_PID_4F82F200-9E0A-49A4-9378-B5D6F6ACE5DC.jpg


The pictures show the rough work done ... To come were the clear glueing of the corner
edges, etc.

Since we had NOTHING to really attach the fabric to .... hmmmm a design FLAW :horse:

We ended up using this stuff called 'Gorilla Tape' :shock:

Man ... is this stuff 8)

Also, my search for a fabric attachment solution at JoAnn's went ........ well .... I think I
better wait till NEXT months coupons come out before I show my face there :lol:
OK ... as we stand at the moment.

All corner traps have been covered.
All panels covered.
All Clouds covered.

I have the 'door' panel on the work bench ... of course, this panel will require a different
method of both hanging & covering. Got an idea that I'm gonna try. Only way I'll know if
it's gonna work.

Wish me luck :)

Pictures of the 'new' look will be coming soon ! to a theater near you !

Thanks for following along !


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:00 am 
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Cool! Pics! So it DID happen! :)

But I'm surprised you didn't at least get cloth with a pumpkin print on it! Very disappointing... :)

Nice work, by the way! Looking good....


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
But I'm surprised you didn't at least get cloth with a pumpkin print on it! Very disappointing... :)

- Stuart -


Yeah ... that's just what they needed ....... security :cop:

I'd end up having to knit covers for all my broadband absorbers :lol:
Attachment:
4536_knitting_cartoon_JL.gif

I was gonna get this book 'Knitting Afghans' ... But it wasn't what I thought :shock:
:shot:

anyway ........

Time for another 'Progress Report'.

Getting down to the final panel as prescribed by 'Glenn' in the original design. This one
was for hanging on the door.

As with the many tasked that must be done, the door 'panel' would require a unique
solution for mounting. I needed to hang this 2'x4'x 4" panel so that it suspend 4" off the
door. Yet, in a secure way as to prevent it from moving, bouncing, or shifting when the
door was being used.

Considering several different ideas, here's what I did. [This is NOT to say this was the
best solution ... or that an easier, more effective way would have been more apparent ... it
was more of a 'reasonable' idea that I wanted to try and then see how it would work out.

After loitering in many a hardware store :P I found a pair of bookshelf brackets that had
potential. As my broadband panel had be mounted inside a 'cage' made from drywall corners,
I did NOT have alot of surfaces to support it. The idea was to see if I could slip these
shelf brackets underneath the cage between the top edge and the rigid insulation. Well,
the brackets would hold it ... but I wanted something a little better.

I took a T-bracket, and bent it 90* , and then attached it to the top edge of the shelf
bracket. Now I had a wider surface to spread the weight [approx 18lbs]. After testing, I
then went ahead and mounted the brackets to the door.
Attachment:
PL_PID_68379A34-9E65-4A9B-8E04-9B3EC7C6723A.jpg

With the solid core door being 1-3/4" thick, I was able to use a 5/8" wood screw to firmly
attach the bracket a 3 points, yet NOT mess up the door 8)

The 2 brackets easily hold the weight of the panel, so now I needed a way to suspend
the bottom of the panel.

I took a small plate of aluminum, and tucked it into the bottom corners and marked it. With
the appropriate size, I cut 2 plates.
Attachment:
PL_PID_B28BEA30-6010-4711-8887-14C57000F2E1.jpg

From a 'sample wafer', I centered a 1-1/8" slice of a wooden dowel, mark it off ... and then
tapped it.
Attachment:
PL_PID_9AD8BD79-8FDD-41F3-BD63-1C8F4590D0F4.jpg

Drilled a hole, and then with a 1" drywall screw, attached a 4" long wooden dowel to the
plate.
Attachment:
PL_PID_DF28A7E0-156C-43F7-80F8-17857C42C1B5.jpg

Assembled as 'mirror images ... this is what I ended up with.
Attachment:
PL_PID_F8F82B7E-3C3C-4787-83DA-D1927190D788.jpg

With the weight of the panel hanging from the 2 brackets,
Attachment:
PL_PID_2368EA6F-75D5-42B6-B859-9AC72C224B64.jpg

I was able to slip the stand offs into the two bottom corners.
Attachment:
PL_PID_9303CBDC-3792-4467-999E-0E680BD492C2.jpg

I know these pix are not that good ... but I hope it gives the idea alright.
Ok ... temporarily, I put some 'spongy' material where the dowel touches the door ... just
so I could test this idea. I gotta say ... the panel is very secure ... it does NOT shift,
AND it can withstand attempts to move it around ... it IS by the door handle, which I tried
to keep enough distance so that knuckles would be assaulted every time you went for the
handle 8)
The final part of this will come after we get this panel covered in polyester & fabric. I had
picked up some 'INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH' velcro. No, I gotta tell ya ... this stuff lives up to
its' billing :shock: Without having to put any more holes into the door, this Velcro has an
adhesive backing on both pieces that will be applied to the door and the dowel. It will only
need a small piece to do the job.
Anyway ... that will be coming up.

Next up ... I did another room shoot with REW now that the basic panels are in place.

I'm still using the tired out Altec speakers from the '60s' ... must ... buy ... new ... speakers.

I don't know ... the resulting graphs ... I really need some help evaluating what REW is
seeing. I'll get the REW file posted soon ... with more pixs.

Thanks for following along ...and thanks for keeping an eye on me and my efforts !!!

Sincerely.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Progress Report ...

Well, the time had arrived for me to shift out of my temporary work area. This meant moving
into the control room with a temporary work 'desk' [if I can call it that].

The old desk I was using is in rough shape ,except for the top plate. The desk is from the
1950's [i'm guessing]. It is a secretarial desk, with a pull-up [spring loaded] table that
would have held a manual typewriter. Not sure, but seems to be made from birch or maple.
One thing I'm certain ... the desk is VERY HEAVY :roll:

After clearing it off, we got the desk on its' side, and found that the top plate could be
cleanly removed ... so we did !!! I'm gonna hang on to the drawers ... maybe I can use
1 or 2 of them. I also had bought some used metal desk legs that should work in converting
this to a new, 'open' style desk. Currently the desk top is 5' wide, 34" deep, and 1-1/2" thick.
Hopefully I can make this work nice. The rest of the desk has been taken to the street.

Today my buddy came over and finished covering the broadband absorber for the door.
I'll post some pics later, but basically the same batting & fabric covering. The 'mounting'
design that I outlined earlier has worked out very well 8)

With that, I have completed the 'initial' acoustical treatment that Glenn had set forth in
his original design. I had re-shot the room JUST before moving my computer and temp
workspace into the room. I will re-shoot again with these things now in the room.

From the REW data ... which I'm still needing to learn more how to read and interpret, I can
see that there are some areas of concern.

Listening to CD quality music ... even through these battered ALTEC monitors is quite something !!!

In the next day, I have to make arrangements to get some new speakers to evaluate. It has
been suggested to audition the FOCAL SOLO 6be. All I know of these monitors are the
varied opinions that seem to state either 'love' or 'hate'. All I know is that I would like
to stay under $3k [us]. I understand that the SOLO's also have an optional 'sub', but I've
never worked with one, and have concerns that I'd ever want to.
What I do know is that I want 'surgical' monitors that will tell me the truth. I'm certain that
I'll need to do further treatment [at least I'm mentally preparing for that] ... but I also need
a good monitor so that I can shoot the room with a better source! [kind of a catch-22].

Nonetheless ... I'll get the REW files posted ... and really hope that our GURU's would
extend their valued time and critique where I am acoustically.

I also will post up some pics of the room as it currently is treated.

Hopefully soon ..... Thanks!!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:34 am 
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If you are auditioning speakers looking for "surgical precision", try a set of Adam A7x, or better still A8x... :)

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:29 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
If you are auditioning speakers looking for "surgical precision", try a set of Adam A7x, or better still A8x... :)

- Stuart -


Hi Stuart,

Always good to hear from you !

This afternoon I talked with one of the Pro Audio Dealers for info. We had a very nice conversation,
with me explaining what type of monitors I need. The 'verbal' description seems a bit crazy,
in retrospect ... :?

Precision & accuracy. Sounds crazy [i know]. I need to be able to hear if something sounds
good or bad ... and I need to hear a 1/2db eq change [without straining].

As an aside, I recall [many years back] a monitoring system delivered to a studio [can't quite
recall the model --- unless I saw them again --- coulda been something like KRK [but I'm not
sure] :| Anyway ... nearly EVERYTHING played in them sound good or acceptable ... EVEN
stuff that I knew had issues seemed alright :shock: That great if playing for clients, but
I need to be able to KNOW what is really there so that I can shape things with intention.

I'm sure that fine tuning of my new room is expected ... obviously I'm more interested in
mixes sounded great OUTSIDE of the control room.

NOW .... I also have to be able to relate to them while working 8)

Currently I have my original pair of NS-10's and Auratones [both from back in the early '80s].
These have been my reference tools. They each provide a 'unique' perspective. Neither
of these monitors really excite me to listen to them ... but they are tools [within limits].

Because of the forwardness of the NS10's, I'd like to find a more neutral/clear mid-range..
not something that will fry the eyebrows ... guess they can be called non-fatiguing :roll:

Well ... I have NO pro audio dealers worth anything in my area ... have to fly to NY City
for the closest. Not good ....

Anyway ... from the conversation, a few candidates came up.

Focal Solo Be

DynAudio BM15a

Manley Tannoy ML10A [with DS mod, along with Yamaha 2200 power amp].

Out of these, the only ones I've actually listened to with the Tannoys while working with
a producer tracking lead vocals. This was back in the early 90's ... what I recall was the
ease of pulling up a mix ... it was a very nice sound stage ! They blew away the studios
house system which were Tannoy DMT215 II. Of course, these modified 10" tannoys were
going for about $12k back then. :shock: but they were nice:)

Fond memories for sure ... but what do they sound like today :shot:

The other 2 systems ... not heard them ... just read reviews/ opinions that seem to cover
the gamut. Love/Hate.

The brain is swimming ... need to clear the mind.

Thanks for listening to me complain as I search for Nirvana :horse:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:15 am 
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... in the meantime ...

Although we have some busy days happening ... here's what happening.

I've got a temporary setup going in the room ... including my old, beat, Altec.

I've been just .... listening.

After nearly a year of planning, design, & building ... I can now walk into this new room and
feel like I have entered a higher dimension 8) This goes for everyone that steps in ... you
can feel the transformation throughout your body and mind.

I've been pulling up tracks, old and new ... listening, analyzing.

Previous work that I goofed around with headphones only, now clearly expose sonic issues
that playback in other systems [car] showed something was wrong.

I can honestly say, the room, with the current [fundamental] treatment that Glenn prescribed,
already sound better than some PRO studios that I've worked.

Last night, my Dad came in to listen ... today [his 85th birthday], he's still marveling at what
he heard last night. Can't believe we were in the basement.

I could go on :blah: as you may know :blah: :wink:

There is more to do.

Things like ventilation :cen: and of course, cleaning up the room.
But also ... taking some time to get comfortable in here. Thinking about desk size, and
ergonomics. Additional room shoots. Thinking over some additional treatment .... and ...
... lots more listening.

The decision on speaker monitors is one that I need to get right. With 'local' choices being
quite slim, I need to make a calm, confident selection.

More to come ... soon I hope :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:46 am 
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Success! :yahoo:

Congratulations!!!!! It's taken a while, but obviously all your careful attention to detail has paid off, and now you are reaping the benefits. :)

Can't wait to hear your first mixes coming out of there...

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Hey !

Just wanted to let everyone know that I'm alive and well ...
made it through turkey day ...

received a nice cold from one of the kids :twisted:
Yes, it was one of the colds that ... having wrenched my back running with some 5/8" drywall
.... something I recommend NOT to do :cop: :cen:
Start coughing .... and pull the back out ............... again :horse:

and throw a 3 gigs in a row, with 3 different bands [my group doing stuff like Steely Dan,
Boz Scaggs, Little Feat] ... 2nd group was Stones, CCR, AC/DC ... and the 3rd was a
jazz quartet.

Basically, I've been living on Z-Cam, Mineral Ice ... and chicken soup. :|

As soon as I can bend down ... I've got to get all the construction tools, parts, experiments
and other odds & ends picked up off the floor.

I also have to get my desk put together ... still deciding what size to cut the old desk top
down to.

What I HAVE been doing is listening to all kinds of music in the new Control room. Though
I'm only using the 'beat-ta-hell' Altec monitors ... that need to have the L-Pads seriously
cleaned or replaced, and most likely a re-capping of the crossover ... nonetheless, the
sound emanating from the front of the room is spell-binding.
Having spent a good part of my audio life in pro studios, I can honesty say that this
basic treatment [without any tweaking as yet] has confidence in the sound field. There
is depth AND width to the entire sound stage. Phantom images both inside AND outside the
monitors are solid.
MOST importantly ... there are many tracks that I have used over the years to help me
acquaint myself to a new room ... cuts like ... 'Liberian Girl'-MJ, 'Just to See her'-Smokey Robinson,
A cut from Chicago10 - David Foster ... plus many many more ..

The only surprise is getting to hear these works sounding really good ... again.

Also ... pulled out some old, funky recordings ... old stuff from Harry James big band ... it had
that sound from the 40's alright ... but the lack of quality was obvious ... unfortunately
because it is some great performances, but the recording quality DOES show as horrendous.
Some old 'Yard Birds' ... great songs ... 'interesting' as far as the recordings go ... :roll:

Again ... what I'm trying to convey, was my hope upon hope, that given ALL the room
restrictions, that could be designed, built, and treated so that serious study, work AND
enjoyment of sound could be had.

I knew that for, maybe, 90% of the people that heard the room would be blown away ...
mainly because they are rarely in these environments ... maybe hit the concert halls a
time or two, but for the few discerning [a couple engineers], I did see smiles.

Anyway ... got to get off the DL ... still got my list of things yet to do ...
but for tonite ... back to listening/studying :mrgreen:

... oh ... more pics to post ...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:22 pm 
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... and he returns to the scene of the crime.

Talk about a break in the action !

Well, not really ... things have been crazy busy [in mostly a good way]. Lots of music
going on. Getting a lot more drum work in ... happy about that, although the BODY feels
a little differently about the beating IT'S taking :lol:

Ahhh ... but the new Control Room ... like stepping into another Universe far away from ...

...... the NOISE :yahoo:

Brother stopped in the other day as we are FINALLY going to finish up the 2 outer walls of the
Control Room. We had the plaster guy in the past 2 days for mudding. Today I got busy
and installed the backer rod along the floor, ceiling, and edge wall ... and then got in there
with the ole caulk gun.

Two gallons of primer await us as we, once again, commence with the Michaelangelo
school of art' .... a study in 'white primer' . ... a real 'Gripper' of a program [thank you Glidden].

Other things ...

Not sure if mentioned, but I did get a new pair of those Yammy HS80M monitors. The price
was just to good to pass up. On top of that, the opportunity to truly evaluate any of the
upper end monitors was just NOT coming together as hoped ... so rather than buy something
unknown to me ... it just seemed good fiscal sense to get the HS80s into the room so that
I can get a fair evaluation and testing of the room ... and my ears.

And THAT is what I've been doing for the past several weeks ... listening ... and then more.

Also trying out this DAW called REAPER. There are some nice things about it.

ONE of the cool features are the configuration options. Like this:

I now have 3 separate monitors going. The HS80s, a single Auratone ... and the 3rd is an
old jam box that I have had with me since the early 80's. [and has traveled to many a studio
over the years].

Well, with REAPER, I've been able to set up a small 'tool bar' that allows me to switch between
all 3 systems at a flick. I also have a button to send a complete MONO signal to just ONE
of the mains [this is something I always like to do when I worked behind a console]. This
is the first DAW that has allowed me an easy way to flip through all references. So I bought
a copy just because of this! :|

I've also received several multi track projects that I can experiment with, AND be able
to send out 'tests' to some close friends with good ears and experience. This is a combination
of learning the room [as it currently], and getting my ears back ... while learning a new
work flow.

To be honest ... I'm finding myself spending MOST of my time listening to the various 'tools'
that I have, and what they sound like. [more on that later if interested] :wink:

Still ... much to do ... and of course, there is the whole other side of the basement that
is going to get a makeover ... but at least I can escape into 'the other world' with a smile!

Thanks for following along ... should have some pix coming. And I still try to follow all the other
build going on here! Always needing to learn more :)

THANKS!!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:06 am 
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your bass traps look really nice!congrats

Can you share a mini quickt tutorial for them please? I am enjoying your work.

Thanks

edit:why did you close one bass traps surface with the wood? Wasn't better too keep the double face free from any kind of cover (bi-directional absorbption)? Expecially the side facing the surface|Wall/Door|


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:56 am 
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Quote:
why did you close one bass traps surface with the wood?
I don't think RJ has any bass traps with wood on them.

Maybe you are referring to this post?:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14794&start=399

If so, that isn't a bass trap. It's a hard-backed ceiling cloud, hung over his first reflection point and also designed to help break up the vertical modal problem in the room.

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:30 am 
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thanks for clarification Stuart. Now I have got it.

Last question: Do you know the name of the brown material he ws using? Looks pretty nice.
Sorry for my noobness. : )


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:18 am 
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manderc wrote:
thanks for clarification Stuart. Now I have got it.

Last question: Do you know the name of the brown material he ws using? Looks pretty nice.
Sorry for my noobness. : )


Hi manderc,

The 'brown' material is the rigid fiberglass that I used for all panels, clouds, & traps.

The product is"

KNAUF Insulation Board 3.0# - Plain ____ with ECOSE.
Product Code: E2367
[2" x 24" x 48"].

Also, as Stuart clarified, the 'wood back' panels are the 3 ceiling clouds at the front of
the room above the mix area.

Hope that helped.


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