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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:32 pm 
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[/color]Hallo,
i just discovered this wonderful forum. :)
My name is Kostas and i mail you from Greece. My English are not so good but i 'll try my best :lol:
So, at first i came here for educational reasons as an opportunity was given to me to build a room from scratch.
Promise i will respect your time and not bother you with a lot of questions as i am not looking for something perfect.

Room propose: Mixing-Mastering/Production/Fun

Expectations: Sound quality 60%, inspiring-beautiful 25%, experimental ideas-design(room size, layouts, dimensions) 15% NOT LOOKING FOR PROFESSIONAL SUPER QUALITY SOUND

Dimensions: H2.40m W3.36m L4.56m ?? (cant be bigger)
Maximum high is going to be 2.60m (from the outside) so i came up with the dimensions by following one of the most used ratios(as i read), having as standard height 2.40m (inside) 1:1.40:1.90.
I really couldn't find a lot of information about different styles of room sizes, layouts, dimensions and i am open to all ideas including (if there are any) experimental stuff.

Monitors: KRK Rokit 8 G2 I will try to flush mount them.
Other info:
I am not going to go with a room into a room. The wall is going to be, from outside to inside drywall->isolation->space-> and then drywall->plywood OR plywood->wood

I am so excited about this, thanks in advance. :)


Last edited by konspan96 on Wed May 05, 2021 5:32 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: some questions?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Welcome! Please completely fill out your profile as per the forum rules.

Quote:
1 Picture A1 Thinking about removing this red parts. How do i find out, how to design the whole red thing, i mean angles distances starting points(did this red thing out of my imagination just to show you the question) Also, should i do something like this or should i leave it rectangular? I dont know the effort it needs to be designed

Those are referred to as soffits and soffit wings. You can use the search feature on the forum to find a plethora of information regarding these. There are basic rules to follow but ultimately they exist to soffit mount your speakers and create an RFZ room.

Greg

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 Post subject: Re: some questions?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:50 pm 
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ok, i found a lot of information here http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/ thank you!

i will follow this image Image
but can i go 90degree instead of 60 and 45degree instead of 30?

I couldn't find any information about the soffit wings.

this image looks useful but i cant understand the angles of the rear and side walls :?:
Image

thank you for your time!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:26 am 
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UPDATED POST

INFO
Dimensions H2.40m W3.36m L4.56
The dimensions are applying to this ratio 1:1.40:1.90
In both designs listening point has been calculated by 38% rule

OPTIONS

Option 1 Speakers - listening position=90 degree, flush mounting angle with front wall=45 degree
Image

Option 2 Speakers - listening position=60 degree, flush mounting angle with front wall=30 degree
Image

QUESTIONS
1 Do you see any problems in the info?
2 Does these designs make any sense? If yes which one do you prefer?

Hope i made things more clear, hope i don't ask too much :)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:21 am 
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You'll need to add soffit wings and also do a thorough ray tracing to ensure that you won't get any first reflections to your ears. After that, you're good to go!

Greg

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:56 am 
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I really appreciate your help :!: :)

So, after reading a chart with best room ratios for 50m3 rooms from Salford University that i will attach, i came up with similar new dimensions.
I changed the height to 2.50m and new dimensions are 2.50m*3.55m*4.17m (I also attached the sketchup file.)

New design:
Image

Questions
1 I somehow designed those wings 6 degrees from somewhere around the middle of the wall i think. How do they look?
2 I suppose will add absorption panels in those red circles right?
(optional) 3 Question here is, will it make any good to cut the ceiling like this?
Image

Thank you!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
1 I somehow designed those wings 6 degrees from somewhere around the middle of the wall i think. How do they look?

Getting there for sure! I can't see exact dimensions in your design, but how far back is your head from the front wall? It should be roughly 38% depth from the front of the room. 25 and 50% is bad.

I would ray trace with wider angles as right now it looks like your wings might not be angled enough for less directional frequencies.

After you get your baffles and wings sorted out, tackle the cloud next. You need to ray trace that as well. You may find yourself juggling all of this to make it work. Also, be sure to take the depth of your speakers (and future speaker upgrades) into consideration.

Quote:
2 I suppose will add absorption panels in those red circles right?

Your wings are a very hard and heavy material. Their purpose is to reflect sound towards the back of the room. Your long room and between 6 and 24" (the thicker the better) of absorption across the ENTIRE back wall will create a great listening spot for you. You should be bass trapping as much as possible. That might mean that the entire cavity behind your soffit baffles and wings are full of insulation.

Quote:
3 Question here is, will it make any good to cut the ceiling like this?

Sorry, I'm not understanding the question.

Greg

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:36 am 
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Hallo greg, thank you again for your support :)

1
Quote:
Getting there for sure! I can't see exact dimensions in your design, but how far back is your head from the front wall? It should be roughly 38% depth from the front of the room. 25 and 50% is bad.

I would ray trace with wider angles as right now it looks like your wings might not be angled enough for less directional frequencies.

After you get your baffles and wings sorted out, tackle the cloud next. You need to ray trace that as well. You may find yourself juggling all of this to make it work. Also, be sure to take the depth of your speakers (and future speaker upgrades) into consideration.


It is exactly at 38%, 1.70m from the front wall. (H2.50, W3.75, L4.50)

Is ray tracing those lines i draw one the floor? (Doesn't look like any of those lines are hitting my listening spot.)
The distance between the speaker and the side wall(wing) is now 37cm (0.37m). I tried to do the wings at 10 degrees, but then wings came to close to the speakers... SO -> IF {wings-angle 6 degrees}={speaker-distance-from-wall 37cm} | IF {wings-angle 10 degrees}={speaker-distance-from-wall 22cm}. What do you think about that?


Placing a cloud might be too much for me right now, so i might do that in the future. Or maybe i can design the ceiling itself somehow, above the front side of the room, to help the sound. I found this picture, should i do something like this? -> Image

2
Quote:
Your wings are a very hard and heavy material. Their purpose is to reflect sound towards the back of the room. Your long room and between 6 and 24" (the thicker the better) of absorption across the ENTIRE back wall will create a great listening spot for you. You should be bass trapping as much as possible. That might mean that the entire cavity behind your soffit baffles and wings are full of insulation.


I thought i am going to build the wings the same way with the other walls, i don't have specified information about wings.

Should i build an extra plywood layer on them so they will be harder and heavier? Should i put absorption panels on them (on the left and right of the listening position) ?

In general, i could put another layer of wood (plywood or mdf?) on some, or all of the walls. Do you think i should do something like that?

3
Quote:
Sorry, I'm not understanding the question.


Is it going to be better for the sound to have a ceiling like this? ->
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:21 am 
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Quote:
Is ray tracing those lines i draw one the floor? (Doesn't look like any of those lines are hitting my listening spot.)
The distance between the speaker and the side wall(wing) is now 37cm (0.37m). I tried to do the wings at 10 degrees, but then wings came to close to the speakers... SO -> IF {wings-angle 6 degrees}={speaker-distance-from-wall 37cm} | IF {wings-angle 10 degrees}={speaker-distance-from-wall 22cm}. What do you think about that?

I can't say if that would work or not without seeing the ray tracing. Designing the soffit baffle (with speaker placement), soffit wings and ceiling cloud is a tricky process for sure. I've often spent hours tweaking to get an ideal placement.

Quote:
Placing a cloud might be too much for me right now, so i might do that in the future. Or maybe i can design the ceiling itself somehow, above the front side of the room, to help the sound.

How come a cloud is too much? That's one of the easier parts of the build.

Quote:
I thought i am going to build the wings the same way with the other walls, i don't have specified information about wings.

The wings are build similar to the soffit baffles. They are just frames holding wood sheathing, sitting inside of your inner leaf. Using the search feature on the forum, you can find a lot of examples.

Quote:
Should i build an extra plywood layer on them so they will be harder and heavier? Should i put absorption panels on them (on the left and right of the listening position) ?

Your room shape (which I thought was just the treatment shape), along with your ray tracing, indicated to me that you want to build an RFZ style control room. That means hard surfaces on the front half of your room to direct sound towards your rear wall where there is a ton of absorption. That means no absorption panes on your wings. You can have absorption along the bottom portion of your soffit baffles and wings as you can see in lots of designs on the forum.

Greg

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:43 am 
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Ok seems like things are getting a little bit harder for me to put together.
Before we continue, is an rfz room the kind of room i should go for?
Please let me explain how this project started in my mind, so maybe you can help me according to that.

At first, the idea was to make my own music room. Only for my fun and not for work.
So i thought why not do the best i could do also with the acoustics of the room. Note that i dont play any instruments.
(Most of my music is computer (mpc-2000) based and it will be coming out of my monitors. I also loved the idea of mounting my speakers into the wall as it always looked wrong to me to place them in front of a wall. :blah: )
I am also mixing music and i am a little more seriously into it. (i dont know if my English makes sense :lol: )

(do you think i should pay someone to design it for me and then i will try to construct it? If yes do you know someone? thing is i dont want to put much money on the design as i look for something i would say simplier if possible)
Sorry if i said too much :|

Just want to make clear if RFZ room is the name of the room we will be designing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:21 am 
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Right now I feel that RFZ is the best mixing room design out there. If you want great acoustics in your mixing room then that's the best choice for you. With it comes a lot of design and build time. It also comes with a price as there are a lot more materials involved. So really, time and money are the determining factors here. You could also get away with building out a room similar to a lot of people do in bedrooms which is to just put a bunch of treatment up and then have your speakers on stands. This is a quick and easy way of getting a decent sounding room.

Greg

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:00 pm 
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hey greg!

Okay then i am going for the rfz room. :D

I changed a little bit the baffles, changed wing angle from 6 to 10 degree and did some ray tracing.
I am not sure if this is ray tracing, and i cannot read it to understand if wings and whole design looks good.

Image

How does it look like?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:54 pm 
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Your ray tracing is done correctly but your angles aren't working correctly, yet. I've circled in red the one boundary in which you get a reflection that will hit your head. Try to make it so that you have a 2 foot diameter sphere around where your head will be in which you get no first reflections. This will allow you to move around a little bit without hearing a first reflection.
Attachment:
re.JPG


I would suggest making your soffits less angled, shorten your wings and angle them more as well. This all might mean that your speakers are closer together, but that's fine. Your soffits could be at 25° to about 35° and that is a good starting point. Try placing your speakers somewhere between 28% to 34% the width of the room.

You're doing great and you're close to getting it sorted!

Greg


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:30 pm 
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Greg i am deeply thankful !

Does it look good? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: (the circle on the listening point has diameter 60 cm)

Image

Quote:
I would suggest making your soffits less angled


So, i didnt make my soffit less angled because i wanted my speakers to be on 90 degrees. ( as i read good speaker placements are 60 and 90 degrees, and i cant make it work at 60)
If you think its beeter at 60 i will try harder


Quote:
shorten your wings and angle them more as well.


Thats exactly what i did :)

Quote:
Your soffits could be at 25° to about 35°


They are 45°

Quote:
Try placing your speakers somewhere between 28% to 34% the width of the room.


They are placed at 20% the with of the room

I am amazed about how much you helped me. <3


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:15 pm 
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ANOTHER QUESTION

I saw this post from john, its a treatment recommendation about walls of small room.
Image

Do you think i should do the same?

I was planning to cover the walls with gypsum board and behind put the insulation.


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