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 Post subject: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Hello to everyone,
Finally after months of reading this forum-treasure and learning, is time to slowly start my own project! As the title describes I have the luck to be able to dedicate a room of my house to create a little home studio. Its dimensions are L: 3,74m W: 2,91m H:2,50m and is part of an old 50's house built of 70cm stone outside walls, 25cm solid brick inside walls, concrete tile floor, concrete ceiling and a solid wood 3cm door. The house is ground floor and there is another residence above.
I already have done some work in Sketchup and put some ideas in you can play with, which you can find in the following link:
https://mega.nz/file/F5kDELja#djt8Px0qH ... xU01IHJMNk
Here is the empty room sketch:
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio 66º.png

And here is a photo of how it actually is:
Attachment:
IMG_1587.jpeg


I also have done the proper preliminary homework:
https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=37 ... ing%20room
and have also done some REW measurements, BUT with the room as seen in the picture (semi-empty that is..) so I don't really know if there is any point of posting them right now..

The heavy wall construction has already given good isolation from/to the outside world (nearest neighbour @ 4-5m.. ) with the weak link be the double-glazed window measuring 35-something db Loss just outside of it. I don't usually work with high SPLs, but there are dogs barking in the neighbourhood and airplanes frequently passing so I have to take care of this.
I also have to take care of the inside door isolation, the room is IN the house me working is annoying to the others, as you can imagine..

The purpose of the room mainly is to be the best control room it can be according to its size, and also to have the ability to make a decent recording in it, mostly spoken voice.
Things that I must do:
1) do something with HVAC. Since it is just a single room I think is will be relatively easy, but still I am searching and learning.
2) make a super-door to isolate from the rest of the house
3) decide how I must treat the room to have a good sonic result with the minimum space consumed.

The biggest problem of all is the budget. I work as a sound engineer in the live industry and as you can imagine with the covid situation most works have stalled and I have no stable income, so the choices will be made with this in mind.
Thanks for reading!


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Last edited by Dio on Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:31 am
Posts: 521
Location: Cork Ireland
Wow, that is one difficult room. Massive walls and small size will lead to very strong modes, with low modal density.
I would recommend:-
A Cloud as big and thick as you can manage. Even a suspended ceiling over the whole room.
Treat your Back Wall (behind you) as thickly as you can. You could do the same on the Front Wall, with the speakers sunk into the treatment perhaps.
Side wall reflection absorbers of course.
Thick fibre absorption is very effective and luckily it works best with low density cheap fibre.
Another ray of sunshine, the acoustics needed for mixing are the same as for clear vocal recording.

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DanDan FitzGerald MIOA MAES
http://www.irishacoustics.com
http://www.soundsound.ie


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:11 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:30 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Philadelphia
Greetings,

As you prepare your padded cell,
Quote:
1) do something with HVAC.
.

Given the amount of absorption you'll need (follow DanDan's suggestions!), your room will get stuffier, in both senses of the word. As a voice artist, you know how important breathing is, so you'll really need to sort this out sooner rather than later. If you are able to remove the window, you could frame in the space and use it for a mini split and ventilator. Your gear will also thank you for addressing this.

All the best,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Thanks both of you for your comments. I am currently converting the simple door to something more usable by adding a layer of 5mm mlv 10kg/m2 and an extra 30mm mdf layer.
I am also searching about the ventilation and a question has came up: where I live we have mild winters (5-15 Celsius) and hot summers (30-35 Celsius). Is the Hrv an one-way solution or a simpler system would do?
Thanks again..


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:41 pm
Posts: 47
Location: Finland
Dio wrote:
And here is a photo of how it actually is:
Attachment:
IMG_1587.jpeg




sorry for offtopic: are those speakers diy/based on something etc?


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
anodivirta wrote:
sorry for offtopic: are those speakers diy/based on something etc?


Yes they are diy. The 8” woofers are Seas p21rex, the mids are Morel MDM-55 and the tweeters Seas 25tff. They are triamplified, the processor-crossover is a Void Acoustics Digidrive+ (rebranded Xilica DCP-3060), the amps are two Linn LK85’s (low and mids) and a Linn knekt roomamp (tweeters). The box is built with the assistance of the BassBox Pro software.
The idea, the time of making, was to make a “poor man’s ATC” :D :cop: ,if possible..


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Happy new Coronavirus quarantine everybody!
I finally finished my door and while I am still perfecting the seals the results are within expectations.
Attachment:
IMG_2831.jpeg


Here is pink noise playing in the room (blue) and the result just outside the door (purple).
Attachment:
My diy door.jpeg


Note that I didn't make a super-heavy door because the house is quite old and I didn't want any surprises with cracked jambs etc...

After done that, I am happy to post my baseline mdat which you can find here:
https://mega.nz/file/RkMxSYJL#KDEZxVp4FuHYzZaPwtiOpUGHfGnwMwGmVYGovxWhF1I

and some screenshots:
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline wtrl.jpg

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline spctr.jpg

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline rt.png

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline ir.png

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline fr.png


Keep in mind that the room was not completely empty while measuring, there was a small drawer and cabinet in, things that will remain in place anyway.

Below is what I have in mind doing for this room:
60cm of hanger at the back wall 20cm insulation on the door , 20cm insulation +10cm air gap in the "refection zone", 30cm absorptive ceiling, angled slats at the back half of the room (to keep some life where the recordings would happen) and flushed monitors with slot resonators in the lower and upper section of the speakerwall (an idea that came after seeng the results of this build viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21269&hilit=Door+seals&start=165), and maybe a limp mass absorber between the monitors for that 45hz mode..

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio.jpg


spk file: https://mega.nz/file/toNDzYDR#dStoxAiAtXNLB-_ME4sJGkMB5SvTJIly3OucFlO0ee0

What is your opinion on this?

And lastly the hvac part. A mini-split will take care of the air-conditioning and a small fan (I believe this https://www.solerpalau.com/en-en/in-line-duct-fans-td-160-100-n-silent-230v50hz-re/ will do) the ventilation. Since my walls are one leaf (and because of the lack of space) I will use one silencer for the fresh and one for the stale air.
Calculations:
Three people max 25x3=75m3
To obtain the 1,5m/s speed I need 13,3cm diameter register or almost 140cm2. I plan to use 10cm pipe and at the last meter 16cm (200cm2) with a 10x30 (300cm2) output (or whatever dimensions close to that). Will this work?
For the silencers I triple the cross section area (from 100cm2 to over 340cm2) and add one more baffle to the Gregwor design.

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio hvac.jpg


I will be happy to read your comments and suggestions!


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:52 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Hello to all,
One alternative layout I am thinking about is this:
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio alt.jpg

with soffit wings extended the more I could extend them, letting more room free with the cost of less absorption on the side walls.
It has a quite good raytrace image too.
Attachment:
dio ministudio alt hor raytrace.jpg

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Wandering around in the forum I found these topics:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13996&hilit=.skp&start=15
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14201

their rooms are almost identical in dimensions to mine, and also John Sayers himself has given some skp files, so I gave it a try:
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio JS 1 rt.jpg

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio JS 2 rt.jpg


The first one seems nice and doesn't consume much space but its raytracing is not what one could expect. Since these "walls" are slot resonators is there any meaning in raytracing? Am I missing something here?
The second maybe is more promising, are there any serious disadvantages is the "sawtooth" design?

Thanks,
dio


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Happy new year to everyone, and a wish to try and make 2021 a better year.
Small room-big update for the beginning of the new year: I finished the back wall hangers and I think regarding their size it was a success.
I used Knauf Ultracoustic insulation (5kPas/m²) 100mm on walls/50mm on hangers and 200mm above the door. The hangers core is 4mm mdf, the choice of which was a result of the simplistic thinking that a 4mm thick 750kg/㎥ mdf surface would have closely the weight of a 12mm thick 440kg/㎥ Homasote same surface. Also I cannot find any Homasote where I live, mdf is everywhere.

Attachment:
Back Hangers model.jpg

Attachment:
IMG_3027.jpeg

Attachment:
IMG_3032.jpeg

Attachment:
IMG_3033.jpeg

Attachment:
IMG_3034.jpeg


Measurements following:
Waterfall, first with the hangers and then the empty room for reference
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio bacwall hangers wtrl.jpg

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline wtrl.jpg


Spectrogram, first with the hangers, then the empty room for reference
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers spctr.jpg

Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline spctr.jpg


Impulse response, hangers
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers ir.jpg


RT60, Hangers
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers RT60.jpg


RT60 Hangers-empty room comparison
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline-hangers RT60 compare.jpg


Frequency response, hangers
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers fr.jpg


mdat:
https://mega.nz/file/5stk1Z7I#OWIR4HuH8 ... 0aSscH-gzY


To my -untrained- eye the installation seems successful. By looking the RT comparison alone we can see that the rt has reduced to half, even in the very low frequencies below 80hz. Spectrograms are another fun graphs to watch: all that spikes below 400hz are greatly damped, even that 45hz monster. One can notice that in the hangers version that mode has shifted to 42hz, because travelling in insulation the speed of sound is reduced and it takes more time to make that 60cm to the wall, so it "thinks" is a bigger room.
The rest of the spectrum is nicely ironed as well.
Same applies to the waterfalls: all those long modal "legs" in time are beautifully shortened with that 89hz almost disappeared, something visible in the frequency response also.
Would using homasote or fibreboard produce better results? Who knows ? What are your comments?
Next step, door treatment and HVAC!

Dio


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:41 am 
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Posts: 5014
Location: Old Tappan, NJ USA
looks great! yeah, you might see some difference with a lower density panel but the results are promising.

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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Thanks Glenn!

Hangers definitively are effective. For comparison see a triple graph below: baseline-wall insulation without the hangers-final construction.
It is clear that the hangers do their job below 150hz
Attachment:
Dio Ministudio baseline-insul no hangers-hangers RT60 compare.jpg


By seeing the effect the deep speakerwall slot resonators had in this built http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... &start=150
I am convinced to take the same route:
Attachment:
5323A30B-65A0-4EFE-903B-632CE469B115.jpeg

to tame this 42hz monster.
Acoustic modelling gives this prediction (from-to) for my tight soffit dimensions:
Attachment:
D490D90B-28C6-4A92-9BE0-FF3A868E3E2E.jpeg

Since I won’t have a large desk (the one showing is temporary), back reflections from it will not be a problem I believe..

Dio


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:31 am
Posts: 521
Location: Cork Ireland
Happy New Year y'all. Watching Dio, keep up the great work.

_________________
DanDan FitzGerald MIOA MAES
http://www.irishacoustics.com
http://www.soundsound.ie


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Greece
Thanks DanDan! It's nice to hear encouraging words!

Dio


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 Post subject: Re: Tiny All-In-One room
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:26 am
Posts: 39
Location: Valencia, California
Looking great! Any updates?

What width are each of the rear hangars? and what depth is the total rear frame?


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