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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:32 am
Posts: 3
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Hey, New to the forum, much appreciate all of the knowledge here, already learn a lot.
After months of searching we found great facility for our needs, close to the metro and train station, very close to the city center. Couple of days ago we sign up an agreement with the owner of this 150m^2 basement.
The place have 90m^2 room with curved walls, 2,9m in height, 30m^2 room with 3 windows and 12m^2 small room.


Here's raw and recreated building layout based on real measurements:
Attachment:
inz+i+chuj2+3.jpg

Attachment:
empty.PNG

There's .skp file for empty room:
https://mega.nz/file/680hhSZL#zJZBuwdicUbwaHjl0_L7zke7XqFhCtFbZ8PYiOe0SMI
Some photos:
Attachment:
1 small.jpg

Attachment:
2 small.jpg

Attachment:
3 small.jpg

Attachment:
4 small.jpg

We did some first shot measurements using guide but only up to 5k and using some behringer PA speaker and nady cm-100
MDAT:
https://mega.nz/file/m0cE2bwK#zjaNmK8-gG6kbq3Vm_IDqCzct-QsOdwci6wKT7MU0XU
PLACING:
Attachment:
measurement.png

Waterfall:
Attachment:
measurement2.PNG

Already did more measurements with different placement but accidentally deleted them, IMO they differ a lot, there's list of resonances from different measurements (listed before delete)
38 56 60 92 118 140
47,5 59 68 85 130 190
38 55,5 80 91 140!!!! 300
38 56 70 118 140
38 55,5 60 70 121 139 213
Most awful was 140hz, I played it at full volume and walked up the building, neighbours, I could hear it even on 5th floor but for them it was not onerous.

We set our needs to have a possibility of having 3 simultaneous sessions in a place. Also we'll be charging more for the Studio 1 which will be the biggest one and have best monitors so the whole studio is designed around that. Most of the time we'll be recording vocals and our client base is mostly that type of artists but I'll setup whole studio to have possibility of record a band.
We really want to have natural light inside so there's at least one window in every room. Behind these 3 windows there's a awful chamber that I need to treat somehow, covered by glass which you can see up from the street. On the bottom (featured in photos above) there's a door to the outside "smoking room" (I bet it can end up like this, sometimes we got session for 10 ppl.) so there was a need for some type of corridor.
I came up with design like this (let's focus only on this central room - studio 1):
Attachment:
design1.PNG

Attachment:
design2.PNG

Attachment:
design 3.PNG

Attachment:
design 4.PNG

There's .skp file for my project:
https://mega.nz/file/jxFkFLLL#A7SbFQsY4xhBkxOUywumztOPKaU_6btpOFT1pLuMys8
There's also first reflection predict using amray:
Attachment:
EARLY l 2 small.PNG

Attachment:
EARLY R small.PNG

Right now the studio 1 have 28,5m^2, vocal booth 11,15 m^2
Whole budget for construction/acoustics is around 25000 usd
Main questions about this project for you guys are:
is there different design layout we didn't thought of?
And idea how to treat this 140 biiig bump? is it from floor-celling mode or from some walls? If I calculated correctly 1/4 wv of this f is around 60cm.
Is there any possibility to calculate room modes in curvature room? (already tried comsol acoustics simulation but without success)
Can we achieve good separation between 2 rooms 40cm-52cm apart themselves?


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Last edited by szymontex on Tue May 04, 2021 3:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:40 am 
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 7:47 am
Posts: 409
Location: Lincolnshire, UK
Hi szmontex,

Nice to have you with us. All of your images posted are broken links for me, I'm afraid. Can you try and upload them again please?
They need to be under 500KB and less than 1200px on the longest edge.

It sounds like you have a really nice space there. You might be quite a bit short on budget for what you want though. I'm not certain of the prices in Poland though.
Here are my very rough estimates/thoughts:

You may need to spend 500-1000+EUR on each one of your windows (DIY, depending on size) and the same on doors (DIY again).
Commercial, acoustically rated back-to-back sliding doors between your rooms will be over 3000EUR each probably.

Then you need to frame up the rooms and double/triple board them on each side, with low-density insulation. You may/may not need green glue between layers 2 & 3 depending on you TL requirements @ 700+ EUR per room probably (if you want to record drums/bass guitar especially). Same for your ceiling, remember LVL or equivalent ceiling joists to span between the rooms can get expensive fast.

HVAC alone for 4+ rooms (are all three recording spaces sharing a control room?) will be easily over 6000EUR, if you get a really good deal.

Structural engineers, electrician, building regulations, planning fees. etc.

Flooring/polished concrete could easily be 2000+ EUR

I see you spending all of your budget only on the building out of the structure and finishes.

You may be able to get by, but I doubt it very much. Little things add up. Screws, nails, caulk etc. In a single room I built, I used over £200 worth of acoustic caulk!

_________________
Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 3:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:32 am
Posts: 3
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Thx, they show up on my desktop PC but I was having corrupted images on phone too. I hope now it's ok.

Behind the outside windows there's a some sort of chamber (perfect for the plants) and above that there's quite strong plexi or glass. There's no noise coming in from the outside. I only need to adopt niche to absorb some bouncing inside.
In terms of doors we're planning to do it by ourselfs. No windows in them, just heavy, well isolated doors. I was analyzing BBC papers about it and some of the product sheets from commercial solutions. I hope we gonna make it to work. Doors will be only from control rooms to vocal booths and from the corridor to control rooms.

Why low density insulation? The high density will be better in panels instead?

There's already preety good gravity ventilation so we're gonna pass it directly to rooms, also there's a nice ventilation duct that we want to continue straight to the fresh outside air, and mount some air filters and fan there (adjusting the speed of it with a light dimmer).

"Structural engineers, electrician, building regulations, planning fees. etc." - We're in Poland bro, nobody will be checking us, I want to use existing electric instalation, just pass it from the existing walls to the inside one, and mount power conditioner and 1:1 transformer right after fuse. Ofc make sure that this is only studio/audio phase, so there's no lighting/other things on that.

In terms of acoustic caulk, I tried to tell my guys how important it is to have some sort of visco-elastic compound for sealing joints and avoid mechanical connection between drywalls, but after they saw price of a greenglue... :shock: :roll: especially there's no good equivalent in PL. I only found some russian product, https://soundguard.ru/catalog/germetik-dlya-zvukoizolyacii/soundguard-seal-7/ It can do the job?

The 25000 usd I mentioned is only for construction/acoustics, we got some other budget for electrical, audio, IT installation and for the gear.
Thanks for the answer!


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:31 am
Posts: 521
Location: Cork Ireland
Hi Syzmo, welcome. Probably best to distill you questions.
e.g. Low Density works for soundproofing in a MAM system, exactly as well as expensive high density.
High density is good for self standing rigid panel traps of 100mm or so. But deep traps of say 200-600 mm work much much better with the light attic insulation.

If you do add lots of insulation for acoustic and soundproofing purposes, it is likely to get quite hot in there.

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DanDan FitzGerald MIOA MAES
http://www.irishacoustics.com
http://www.soundsound.ie


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:32 am
Posts: 3
Location: Warsaw, Poland
DanDan wrote:
Hi Syzmo, welcome. Probably best to distill you questions.
e.g. Low Density works for soundproofing in a MAM system, exactly as well as expensive high density.
High density is good for self standing rigid panel traps of 100mm or so. But deep traps of say 200-600 mm work much much better with the light attic insulation.

That's a useful summary. Thank you!
DanDan wrote:
If you do add lots of insulation for acoustic and soundproofing purposes, it is likely to get quite hot in there.

So the system will be ready to mount some conditioner however it will be helpful at the winter :P

Probably my low-density mineral wool of choice will be Paroc UNS 37z
https://platformaizolacji.pl/poddasza/296-welna-skalna-paroc-uns-37z.html
29 kg/m3, flow resistivity around 8000, 4.38 usd / 3.64 eur per m^2

I'm gonna write down all my current questions apart from overall look about the design:
Quote:
is there different design layout we didn't thought of?


Quote:
And idea how to treat this 140 biiig bump? is it from floor-celling mode or from some walls?


Quote:
Is there any possibility to calculate room modes in curvature room?


Quote:
In terms of acoustic caulk, I only found some russian product, https://soundguard.ru/catalog/germetik- ... rd-seal-7/ Can it do the job?


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