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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:14 am 
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Hi and thanks for this wonderful forum! I have read through 100s of threads and am impressed with all the knowledge found among the members here. Lots of useful reading material for a beginner like me. I still have a couple of questions I hope someone can help me with. But first I can introduce myself and what plans I have as I think it can be helpful to find the right solution for my use.
I am a 50 year old drummer from Norway, with minimal experience or education in sound engineering or construction of a studio / rehearsal room. In addition to being a drummer, I do some drum teaching, and I restore old drum kits, something I come back to in connection with the building I want some advice on.

I have rented a building of approx. 160 sqm which will contain 3 "soundproof" rooms in addition to a hallway, an office, a workshop, a small toilet and a room for the ventilation system. 2 of the "soundproof" rooms will be used as rehearsal rooms for bands. The last room will be used by myself to play drums, teach drumming, the opportunity to record drums, as a showroom for drum kits I have restored, and the room will eventually also be able to be used as a control room / studio / liveroom.
The challenge I have is, among other things, that I have only been given a 5-year lease and therefore do not want to invest more than necessary in the premises, but at the same time it must be usable for my purpose and it must "look good". My budget is approx. 15,000 euros so some of the building materials must be bought used, possibly available for free (it is amazing how much is thrown away or given away for free). I do the job myself, but it's nice with good advice along the way :)

About the room:
    - It is a concrete building from about 1940 with 30 cm thick walls.
    - The building has two floors, I rent the 2nd floor.
    - The first floor is only used as a warehouse and no one lives or works there.
    - The room is located by a marina approx. 150 mtr. from the nearest residential house.
    - The building has old uninsulated windows that must be kept as they are (the facade is worthy of protection). Inside, of course, I will build room-in-room with new insulated windows (5 layers with different thickness and distance, these have been purchased).
    - Floor dividers are in concrete, except for about 8 sqm which has beams in wood

My challenges, and in the first place the floor:
    - The rooms are on the 2nd floor.
    - There will be times when two of the rooms are used at the same time (rock / metal bands).
    - One of the rooms has approx. 8 sqm beams towards the 1st floor. These beams must be at least 5x10 cm and will then build approx. 5 cm above the remaining concrete floor, while I would like the new floor to be the same height.
    - The concrete floor has large unevenness with some elevations / plateau up to 5 cm height.

Considering my budget, and that sound to the lower floor is not critical, I wonder if the following solution for flooring can be decent enough (not perfect, not the best, but acceptable considering the above application). See also pictures to understand the problem and my suggested solution.
    - 1 x 50 mm Styrofoam (to correct unevenness in concrete)
    - 1 x 12.5 mm gypsum
    - 1 x 12 mm Silencio plate
    - 1 x 22 mm chipboard

The rooms are 25-30 sqm and will be built with about 15cm distance to all concrete walls and pillars. See attached photos and sketches with exact measurements.

I will probably have other questions along the way when it comes to the structure on top of the floor, insulation, distance, ventilation, placement of windows etc. But in the first place it would have been nice if someone has input on how the floor should be built to Avoid transmitting too much sound through the floor from one room to another.

Many thanks in advance, and sorry if I have not been thorough enough in the explanation of the project, but I hope the pictures also give a good description in themselves.

Gunnar - Norway.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:33 am 
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Sorry but my instincts are negative about the feasibility of this venture. Sound leakage through the floor and roof etc. may be a problem. Do people spend time on those boats? Or is this a very quiet zone where your 150M neighbour may hear you?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:58 am 
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DanDan wrote:
Sorry but my instincts are negative about the feasibility of this venture. Sound leakage through the floor and roof etc. may be a problem. Do people spend time on those boats? Or is this a very quiet zone where your 150M neighbour may hear you?


Hi Dan and thanks for your feedback! :thu:
The marina where this building is located is used primarily as mooring boats (I do not know if this is the correct word in English?) There is little activity other than when the boats go in and out of the harbor. The nearest residential house that is 150 meters away belongs to the owner of this building I am going to rent. For him, it is not a problem if the building is not 100% soundproof, and I doubt if he will in any case hear a lot 150 meters away considering how each room will be insulated.
My big concern is sound leakage between the rooms, and especially via the floor, as they will be used simultaneously by different bands. I believe that I will be able to limit sound penetration via ceilings and walls by using steel uprights, 15 cm insulation, 15 - 30 cm air space and 3 layers of plasterboard inside each room. The floor, on the other hand, is a challenge and I am unsure of what is the most appropriate way to build it within my budget and my requirements for noise reduction.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:00 pm 
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If you are able to achieve an adequate level of isolation for each space then I would definitely not daisy chain your Hvac ducting as shown in the pictures, although I'm not sure if you'll have much choice. If you can find a way, then run your ducts in parallel i.e. have one main trunk duct with multiple branches off of it into each of your spaces.

Running the ductwork as shown in your picture will further diminish rather significantly the overall level of isolation between each space.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:22 am 
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following up on paulus' statement - you will need to create isolation "silencers" for each room penetration by the ducts. another is filtering the air. separate parallel ducts will help if you plan on separate zones for temperature control. you could also just use the ducts for fresh air via an HRV and use mini-splits for each room.

the inter-room structural transfer will be high. so contemplate decoupling the floor in each room using impact noise techniques, and building isolating drum and amp platforms to further attenuate direct transfers into the floor.

i'd probably re-arrange the rooms - put all office/relax/kitchen bits in one location, the workshop and utilities in another, and then leverage adjoining CR and "rehearsal" rooms as live room and iso room options (in case a big name artist wants the entire place for themselves) this way you maximize options for use and separate the non-working aspects of the social areas and office from the studios, and the workshop and utilities are kept out of sight out of mind.

consider fire safety as well as accessibility. security. load-in/out, parking etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:26 am 
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Paulus87 wrote:
If you are able to achieve an adequate level of isolation for each space then I would definitely not daisy chain your Hvac ducting as shown in the pictures, although I'm not sure if you'll have much choice. If you can find a way, then run your ducts in parallel i.e. have one main trunk duct with multiple branches off of it into each of your spaces.

Running the ductwork as shown in your picture will further diminish rather significantly the overall level of isolation between each space.


Thank you "Paulus 87", if I understand you correctly, the solution is to have separate ducts right from the room where the ventilation system is to each room, and not make branches? It should not be a problem as I have a good ceiling height above the rooms. But there will be a split 1 to 4 in the ventilation room? as the system I bought has only one pipe out and one in. I will probably have to read more about ventilation before I build this, but all tips are highly appreciated!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:30 am 
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gullfo wrote:
following up on paulus' statement - you will need to create isolation "silencers" for each room penetration by the ducts. another is filtering the air. separate parallel ducts will help if you plan on separate zones for temperature control. you could also just use the ducts for fresh air via an HRV and use mini-splits for each room.


Thanks "gullfo", my plan was to use silencers for each room, but I understand that it is best to have seperate ducts all the way in addition to silencers for each room. Not sure if these silencers should be built as DIY boxes (which I have read about on the forum) or if I can use ready-made silencers as pictured?

Attachment:
7023670125234_1.jpg


gullfo wrote:
the inter-room structural transfer will be high. so contemplate decoupling the floor in each room using impact noise techniques, and building isolating drum and amp platforms to further attenuate direct transfers into the floor.


Each room will have seperate floors with a layer of plaster, a layer of silencio boards and a layer of chipboard before the inner walls are built on top of this. I also plan to use 50mm Styrofoam under this to level the floor, but am unsure if this will work or if it has any purpose ?. The floors are built with about 150mm clearance for all existing walls. Sounds like a decent solution for decoupling the floors?
I have 260 - 300 cm ceiling height in the existing rooms and should end up with 220 - 260 in the inner rooms, so there should be enough height for drum and amp risers/platforms.

gullfo wrote:
i'd probably re-arrange the rooms - put all office/relax/kitchen bits in one location, the workshop and utilities in another, and then leverage adjoining CR and "rehearsal" rooms as live room and iso room options (in case a big name artist wants the entire place for themselves) this way you maximize options for use and separate the non-working aspects of the social areas and office from the studios, and the workshop and utilities are kept out of sight out of mind.


Unfortunately, I do not have the opportunity to restructure the rooms due to brick walls, pillars, size of rooms etc.
Two of the rooms, which are about 25 sqm each, will be rented out permanently to bands that only have access to a toilet and the entrance area which will also contain a small kitchen and a sofa corner.
The last rehearsal room / control room / live room I will use myself in addition to the workshop and office, therefore it is separated without access to these from the entrance area. Workshop and office which are about 15 sqm each have brick walls and not possible to change or use for rehearsal rooms for bands as they become too small. The division of the rooms is probably not ideal, but I do not see that I have so many other options in terms of how the building is constructed, and in terms of what I will use it for.
For financial reasons, I have to rent out two of the rooms permanently for rehearsal rooms, although I would like to keep them for my own use :)
Attachment:
IMG_2060.jpg


gullfo wrote:
consider fire safety as well as accessibility. security. load-in/out, parking etc.


With regard to fire safety, the requirement in Norway is that the building must contain at least one fire extinguishing device and at least two escape routes. One escape route is the front door, and the other escape route will be through a large window from the workshop, I must therefore have doors into the workshop that can be opened in an emergency.
Load-in / out is not ideal as there is a staircase up to the entrance, but it is unfortunately nothing to do with. However, there is plenty of parking space :)
Attachment:
_MG_4198.jpg


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:29 pm 
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coolio. on the floors - styrofoam would not be good as it will breakdown. you're better off using 25mm of rebonded carpet foam as the spring. then 3 layers of plywood and/or MDF on top for the mass.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:49 am 
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gullfo wrote:
coolio. on the floors - styrofoam would not be good as it will breakdown. you're better off using 25mm of rebonded carpet foam as the spring. then 3 layers of plywood and/or MDF on top for the mass.


Thanks Glenn!
However, I do not think it is possible to get hold of 25 mm rebounded carpet foam in Norway, I have at least not found anything other than 2-3 mm. We use very little solid carpets in Norway, mostly parquet or solid wood floors. But we have something called Hunton Silencio, it is 36 mm thick and made to dampen sound between floors.
The reason I considered Styrofoam (XPS) was to even out the floor as it has relatively large height differences, but it will probably be too weak even if I put 36 mm Silencio + 2-3 layers of plywood / MDF on top?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:28 am 
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the specs on the Hunton Silencio indicate a density of 240-280Kg/m3 - that is fairly dense so i'm not sure it is soft enough to work as needed. the specs say basically its limiting transmission to 53db... which is pretty high.
maybe the thinner stuff 4-5mm would work.

on leveling - if it's a concrete floor - use self-leveling concrete after giving the floor a proper stripping and concrete wash.

another option - run some tests with the EPS - put down a sheet of it, then put down a layer of plywood. place a nice sized bass amp face down on the plywood, and run some 100db low freq sweeps (10hz-120hz) and listen on the floor with a stethoscope and/or a piezo pickup to record with.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:46 am 
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gullfo wrote:
the specs on the Hunton Silencio indicate a density of 240-280Kg/m3 - that is fairly dense so i'm not sure it is soft enough to work as needed. the specs say basically its limiting transmission to 53db... which is pretty high.
maybe the thinner stuff 4-5mm would work.


Thanks Glenn!
I found a product today that might be suitable as soundproofing under the floor? REBOND L 100 PS (I did not think we had this in Norway but was wrong) :)
The supplier can cut it to the size and thickness I want, eg 100x200x30 (2 sqm, 3 cm height), but it is relatively expensive.
90 sqm that I need will cost me about 2500 euros in addition to 1500 euros for each layer of plywood on top.
What do you think about using eg 2 cm foam, 1 layer of 13mm gypsum board and 1 layer of 22mm chipboard, do you think it will work? Maybe not ideal or the best, but acceptable? (to keep costs down)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:08 pm 
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go with the 2cm and if you can - concrete sheets (we use that here in the US for bathroom walls and floor) would be denser and less likely to fragment than drywall. but if that's what you have available and in budget, then go with that. chipboard (or OSB) in lieu of plywood should be ok.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:04 am 
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Thanks Glenn, I really appreciate your advice!
I can get hold of concrete sheets but the price is approx. 30 euros for 1 sqm 6mm so it is probably not within my budget in addition to foam and chipboard / plywood.
I know I may want the impossible here, both cheap and best at the same time :) , but if I can find a solution that works best within my budget, I'm happy.

Maybe a stupid question but we use a lot of slate stone (do not know if it is the right word? See picture) on the roofs in Norway. I have understood it so that on top of carpet foam there is mass needed, maybe a layer of slate stone will work between the foam and the chipboard ? They are small sizes, aprox 25 x 40 cm, and they are teardrop-shaped so there will be areas that are not completely covered with stone, that might be a problem?
Maybe I'm completely lost now, but if concrete sheets will work then stone does too?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 am 
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maybe as a flooring above the flat mass. although probably best to just keep the surface even so clients are tripping on it.

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