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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:11 am 
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Hello,

This is my first posting. I've been researching the forum for a few months and found tons of great information, thank you for that. I have a few questions regarding my current project.

I'm building a studio in my detached 2 car garage. Live room is 22'x16' w/vaulted ceiling, approx 12' high. Control room is 12'x16' w/8' ceiling and there's a small 7'x7' ISO booth. I'm in the process of framing the building. It sits on a concrete slab.

I measured 110db (C weigh) in the live room, playing drums. Approximately 80db outside (12 feet away) and the city noise ordinance levels should be under 55db. I'm looking for a room within a room approach with emphasis in low frequency attenuation.

My questions are: As far as the ceiling goes, the current outside leaf is shingles>OSB>frame all exposed in the inside. There's a ridge beam, joists and rafters. My contractor said he could finish the current ceiling by adding insulation and drywall to then install a new ridge beam below the existing one and new rafters that are essentially floating, although they will be attached to the inside wall frame. Then we will add insulation>5/8"drywall>GreenGlue>5/8"drywall - My first thought was this is a 3 leaf ceiling! but I was wondering if it can work. We had a hard time figuring out how to decouple the ceiling without installing new rafters, and this was sort of his interpretation of what a room within a room means...

And one other question I had regarding the walls, the current outside walls are: siding>OSB>frame - I'd like to do: siding>OSB>frame>insulation>4"gap>innerframe>insulation>5/8"drywall>GreenGlue>5/8"drywall - Would this provide the best results?

Lastly, I can simply have a 2 leaf wall between the control room and the live room, correct? Is there a better approach?

Thank you.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:16 am 
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anyone? ... :?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:40 am 
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felipe411 wrote:
Hello,

This is my first posting. I've been researching the forum for a few months and found tons of great information, thank you for that. I have a few questions regarding my current project.

I'm building a studio in my detached 2 car garage. Live room is 22'x16' w/vaulted ceiling, approx 12' high. Control room is 12'x16' w/8' ceiling and there's a small 7'x7' ISO booth. I'm in the process of framing the building. It sits on a concrete slab.


How tall is the existing joist framing? The reason I ask is exactly how you plan to get 12 feet of height.

felipe411 wrote:
My questions are: As far as the ceiling goes, the current outside leaf is shingles>OSB>frame all exposed in the inside. There's a ridge beam, joists and rafters. My contractor said he could finish the current ceiling by adding insulation and drywall to then install a new ridge beam below the existing one and new rafters that are essentially floating, although they will be attached to the inside wall frame. Then we will add insulation>5/8"drywall>GreenGlue>5/8"drywall - My first thought was this is a 3 leaf ceiling! but I was wondering if it can work. We had a hard time figuring out how to decouple the ceiling without installing new rafters, and this was sort of his interpretation of what a room within a room means...


Yea, that would produce kind of half of a three leaf...but I am still unclear of what your structure looks like, height wise, and if this procedure you guys are thinking about will be produced in the entire structure.

felipe411 wrote:
And one other question I had regarding the walls, the current outside walls are: siding>OSB>frame - I'd like to do: siding>OSB>frame>insulation>4"gap>innerframe>insulation>5/8"drywall>GreenGlue>5/8"drywall - Would this provide the best results?


Towards a mass/air/mass assembly, yes this is correct. What type and how dense of a siding? If you have OSB as a sheathing and shearing componant then I would think you have a light weight siding. So you would want to mass up the exterior wall cavities at the stud areas in an attempt to reach your isolation goals.


felipe411 wrote:
Lastly, I can simply have a 2 leaf wall between the control room and the live room, correct? Is there a better approach?



You would need to maintain the mass/air/mass fully decoupled assembly procedures to produce and maintain your isolation requirements.

The following image shows what is attempted to produce when we try to develop a fully decoupled mass/air/mass environment:
Attachment:
room in a room.png


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:17 am 
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thank you for responding...

The current joists sit at about 8', the rafters are about 12' (peak of the vaulted ceiling). I'll be droping the ceiling by 8" if I do it this way. I'm ok if it drops a bit...

I'm planning on doing this only in the live room, the control room will be standard 8" tall ceiling.

The siding is vinyl, pretty light. I can actually remove all of it and replace it with wood siding. Do you think I should beef up the exterior walls still? With another layer of OSB perhaps?

I'm still confused about the control room/live room wall, should this be treated like an exterior wall? Thanks! :D I'll try to post a picture here soon

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:47 am 
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Here's a picture of the ceiling and the wall I described above. Please note the control room isn't framed yet. The vinyl siding and window will be removed to expose the frame, my question was how to treat this shared wall? There will be an interior leaf in the live room. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:41 am 
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The vinyl siding and window will be removed to expose the frame, my question was how to treat this shared wall? There will be an interior leaf in the live room.
You seem to have missed the point that Brien was making: you can't just have a "shared wall" between the rooms. Rather, each room must be built independently from the other, fully decoupled, such that you have a proper "room in a room".

Like this:

Attachment:
msm-2-leaf-WallChunk-conventional-not-inside-out-2.png


The same applies to the ceilings: Each room has it's own independent ceiling that sits on top of the inner-leaf walls for that room, without touching the walls for any other room, nor the outer leaf walls, nor the outer leaf ceiling.

Quote:
I measured 110db (C weigh) in the live room, playing drums. Approximately 80db outside (12 feet away) and the city noise ordinance levels should be under 55db. I'm looking for a room within a room approach with emphasis in low frequency attenuation.
So you need a total of about 55 to 60 dB of isolation. Right now you have about 30, which is typical of normal house construction. And you need to make it one thousand times better... ! Yup, do the math: each time you increase the isolation by 10 dB, you need to stop 10 times more energy. So increasing from 30 to 40 is ten times, 30 to 50 is one hundred times, and 30 to 60 is one thousand times.

This is why the ONLY way you can do that at a reasonable cost, is as outlined above: fully-decoupled 2-leaf MSM isolation.

Quote:
My contractor said he could finish the current ceiling by adding insulation and drywall to then install a new ridge beam below the existing one and new rafters that are essentially floating, although they will be attached to the inside wall frame. Then we will add insulation>5/8"drywall>GreenGlue>5/8"drywall - My first thought was this is a 3 leaf ceiling!
Right. As Brien said, that would indeed be a 3-leaf ceiling.

Quote:
but I was wondering if it can work. We had a hard time figuring out how to decouple the ceiling without installing new rafters, and this was sort of his interpretation of what a room within a room means...
Yes it can work. Sometimes there is no choice but to do a 3-leaf, and even though the isolation is lower than for the equivalent 2-leaf, you can compensate for that with more mass and bigger air gaps. In your case, you would do that by putting drywall on the bottom of those joists to create the "middle" leaf, then building your rooms under that, and putting the final ceilings on as a third leaf. If you get enough mass and air gaps, then you can still get the isolation you want.

Quote:
Lastly, I can simply have a 2 leaf wall between the control room and the live room, correct? Is there a better approach?
Yep! Do each room as a single leaf, within the outer shell of the building, which is your outer leaf. That gives you the correct "fully-decoupled 2-leaf room-in-a-room" that you need for maximum isolation. The same applies to all doors and windows: they must also be done double, with a pair of back-to-back doors, and a pair of back-to-back glass panes.

- Stuart -


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:52 am 
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Thanks guys! I now have a better understanding and feel pretty good about the build... I'll try to keep this updated with pictures and questions as I go along, thanks for the help!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:37 am 
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Hey guys, just wondering if you can take a look at this layout and maybe give me some thoughts? I'm keeping things simple and functional, 2 rooms with an entrance. The rectangle on the left side of the control room represents the garage door, which will be completely removed. The one in the control room represents the glass. The red wall is the "shared" wall which we discussed above.

Also, I can't seem to find density details for R13 insulation :shock: I looked at manufacturers websites and such... does anyone know? R13 seems more cost effective than mineral wool, for the walls and ceiling.

Thanks!


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Last edited by felipe411 on Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:09 am 
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thoughts? :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:29 am 
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anyone?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:57 am 
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The control room exterior walls are up (the little garage window will be removed and the studio glass placed next to it on the opposite side of the door). Not the best weather for this type of work right now :? Anyone care to provide some input regarding the questions above? Also, regarding insulation, I found some posts stating density at 50kg/m3 for mineral wool as preferred/recommended... I was thinking about insulating the wall cavities with this:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul ... -1006.html

And standard R13-R15 for the ceilings ???

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:50 pm 
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Control room ridge beam is up.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:12 am 
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Quote:
just wondering if you can take a look at this layout and maybe give me some thoughts?
There's not much to go on there! Just a couple of rectangles inside another rectangle... You'll have to provide a lot more detail for anyone to be able to offer useful comments. I'd suggest that you do the design in SketchUp, showing all the details, and post that here. That's probably why nobody commented: there's nothing to comment on! :)

Quote:
I was thinking about insulating the wall cavities with this:
That would work fine, but you'll need more than 2". See if you can find 4" stuff, and use one of those for the outer leaf, and another for the inner leaf.

Same for the ceiling.


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:12 am 
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There's not much to go on there! Just a couple of rectangles inside another rectangle... You'll have to provide a lot more detail for anyone to be able to offer useful comments. I'd suggest that you do the design in SketchUp, showing all the details, and post that here. That's probably why nobody commented: there's nothing to comment on! :)
Right, I just realized how basic it was :? . I'll download Sketchup today and put something together. I received a message from John with some suggestions as well, thank you all.

Quote:
That would work fine, but you'll need more than 2". See if you can find 4" stuff, and use one of those for the outer leaf, and another for the inner leaf.
I can do 2 bats of 2" each for a total of 4", that should do it.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:14 pm 
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Hello, I downloaded Sketchup last night and was able to put this together hoping to get some input. As you can tell, I'm not very good at it but I think this can give you a good idea of what I'm trying to do. Please note, in the live room, the slat resonators are supposed to be angled, I just couldn't figure out how to do it in Sketchup. I'm going for general broadband absorption and diffusion, not targeting any specific frequency. In the control room, I'm shooting for panels and bass traps in the corners. The black grid looking thing in the back wall is where the guitar amps are going to be. Let me know what you think, thanks!

Also, regarding the mineral wool insulation, I priced it out and turns out to be really expensive for 2 sets of 2" to achieve 4" thickness. I can get 3" bats and cut the cost by 30%. Will it be ok to do 3" bats for the outer leaf and inner leaf?

Thank you.


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